Ravi: Just around that same time, I had a call from one of these Alzheimer research groups asking me if I would be interested in taking part in a test. And this was on the phone, and it was really disconcerting because I was struggling. Allison: That's Ravi Venkatesh. Like many older adults, he's concerned about developing dementia, so much so that he's making multiple changes to his lifestyle to reduce his risk of dementia. You'll meet Ravi in a few moments. Jay: Welcome to Defy Dementia, the podcast for anyone who has a brain. Allison: Defy Dementia is all about living in ways that keep your brain healthy and reduce your risk of dementia, because dementia is not predestined by our genes. Genetics can play a role, but so do lifestyle risk factors like poor sleep and unhealthy diet or even air pollution. Jay: Scientists think that if we make healthy changes to those lifestyle factors, all of them, we could reduce dementia cases worldwide by at least 40%. That's an incredible number. Allison: In this podcast series, we've been giving out a lot of advice on lifestyle changes, and today, we're going to get into how to sort through all that advice. If you're struggling with where to even begin, we've got practical, simple suggestions on where you can start. Jay: And if you're beyond the beginner stage and curious about taking it up a notch, want to try multiple lifestyle changes to lower your dementia risk even more, we have tips on that too. Allison: I'm Allison Sekuler, President and Chief Scientist at the Baycrest Academy for Research and Education and the Centre for Aging and Brain Health Innovation. Jay: I'm Jay Ingram. I'm a science writer and broadcaster. I've been writing and talking about dementia for more than a quarter-century. Allison: So join us as we defy dementia, because you're never too young or too old to take care of your brain. Jay: Allison, we've shared a lot of personal things on the show with each other and with the listeners, things like our New Year's resolution and your face cream, how we're trying to eat more healthily, and how we're struggling to improve our sleep. But I've never really talked about the reason why I introduce myself on Defy Dementia with the words I've been writing and talking about dementia for more than a quarter-century. So maybe it's time I explained that, and there are two reasons. I initially got interested in dementia because the science of it was so fascinating. This would've been 25 years ago. But even though there was a lot of confusion, it was really exciting, and obviously, the stakes were incredibly high because there was no treatment for this disease. So it was really exciting science. But it's hard for me to deny the fact that I have a lot of dementia in my family. My mother, every one of her sisters, her other three sisters, my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, a lot of people, so that makes me think about my own risk. So the science is great, I still think so, but here on Defy Dementia, we have an opportunity to have an impact, an impact, to actually reduce dementia risk, and that would be pretty amazing. Allison: Yeah, I can't agree more. I think I share all of your thoughts, and I also share having a family history of dementia. Both of my grandmothers also lived with dementia. And I think in terms of the impact, it is so important to make sure that people understand there are things that you can do to reduce your risk. And I also think, given everything that we've talked about, it's important that we start to underline a few of the key points that we've all learned from this series, and step one is understanding that dementia is not dictated by our genes. In fact, in some of the recent episodes, we've heard that scientists have actually been suggesting that some of the healthy lifestyle changes that we were talking about can be powerful enough to actually counteract the influence of those genes. Jay: And you know what? That's a new idea, because if we'd been talking about the subject of genetics 20 years ago, and you said, "Oh, you got this double dose of the bad gene," you'd think, "Oh, my God. There's nothing I can do about it." But like you, I've been listening to the experts on the show really drill down on advice, on lifestyle changes like improving your diet, bettering your sleep if you're upset, if you're waking up in the middle of the night, and maybe you've been inspired to try a few risk-reducing changes. On the other hand, maybe you're bamboozled by the many different pieces of lifestyle advice that you've been hearing, and you may be starting to ask the perfectly rational question, "Where the heck do I start?" Allison: Later on the show, we will have expert advice on how to do just that and more. But first, let's hear from another Canadian who's concerned about dementia. Jay: Ravi Venkatesh is a sixty-two-year-old who lives in Mississauga, Ontario. What you need to know about Ravi is generally his brain has served him well. He was born in Kolkata, India. Ravi's dad worked for the government, so his family traveled around a lot. By the time he was 15, he was fluent in six different languages. Ravi left India and worked in the Middle East, Australia and the United States and came to Canada in 2001. He's now a project manager at an IT firm. When he is not working, he loves to build computers and read. But recently, there have been times when Ravi's brain has seemed to fail him. He became conscious that his brain was aging and worried that those incidents could be an early sign of dementia. So he took action to reduce his dementia risk and later began listening to this very podcast. Ravi is here, because like many, he has a new awareness of brain health, and he's actively exploring multiple ways to maintain it. Ravi, welcome to Defy Dementia. Ravi: Excited to be here. Jay: We are excited to have you, too. So Ravi, before we get into the time when you became concerned about your brain, tell us about your brain health when you were young. Knowing that you could learn all those languages must have made you feel pretty confident about your brain. How quick a learner were you at other things? Ravi: I was pretty quick at most things. I did very well in the graduate record exam, for example, which has got all those memory tests and things like that. Never really thought that my brain would ever be an issue for managing things. I picked up those languages when I was young, and I didn't have to make any extra effort to do it. It just came automatically. Allison: So Ravi, now bring us closer in time to just before you began to really focus on maintaining your brain health, and in terms of the risk factors that we've been talking about on the podcast, like diet and fitness, social engagement, things like mindfulness that might improve your sleep and other things, how brain healthy do you think your lifestyle was? Ravi: So I eat, cook, and eat my own food, so I don't eat out, I don't eat fried food. I do exercise, walk quite a bit and so on. I've been doing meditation for more than 10 years, probably closer to 15 years, including silence meditation, which goes on for one hour at a time. I didn't connect any of that to brain health so much as just stress relief and things like that and just being healthy, nothing else. And socially, I was not very active. I'm a bit of an introvert, and that was one of the things I took away from the podcast, one of the podcasts which talked about being social, and I started greeting people on the road while going out for a walk, which was totally unnatural to me. But till then, yeah, I was not very socially active and not necessarily an extrovert of that kind. But I have guests at home all the time. I have a large home, and I put it on Airbnb so that I could have company, and right now, I've got three families staying at home with me, so I always have somebody to talk to. Jay: So Ravi, why did you become concerned about your brain health and the possibility of dementia? What happened? Ravi: The first trigger was that I worked for a French company based out of Montréal, and they offered French lessons. I went through two rounds of French lessons, and I found that it was very, very hard. I assumed that I'd be able to pick it up and be fairly fluent in about six months time. At the end of six months I was struggling, and I was not able to remember what was discussed last week. That was the first sign, and then I put it down, I talked to my daughter who is a nurse, and put it down to saying, "Oh, you're getting old, so it's obviously harder." Just around that same time, I had a call from one of these Alzheimer research groups asking me if I would be interested in taking part in a test. And this was on the phone, and it was really disconcerting because I was struggling. There are things that I automatically assumed, if you give me a list of five names, I will remember it. Well, I didn't. So then I went to my doctor and asked for the same whatever tests that she would administer, and she came out saying that your brain is fine, your memory is fine. It's nothing extraordinary. But I did find even that, that while she was being positive, I didn't do as well as I thought I would. Jay: Can you go back and give us a sense of what went through your mind when you first thought that maybe you should do something? Ravi: Yeah. I have a friend whose mother has got dementia, and I talked to my friend at that time about exactly how it was affecting them, and I started getting worried. At the same time, I talked to my sister, who is into Sanskrit, she teaches Sanskrit chants online, and we started discussing some things. I have a priest, for example, in the family who was 95 years old when he conducted his last wedding, and Indian weddings are really complicated. They take three hours of chanting, saying, "How come that person was able to continue with that?" And so I spent some more time saying, "If you actually work on it, even if it is something you do naturally, learning chants, for example, for a particular purpose and so on, I would be able to not be in the same boat that my friend's mom is in." So the chants require you to memorize them. Keep in mind I've been hearing them since I was a kid. I started actually learning the words and putting words to those chants and trying to keep them memorized, and that has helped my memory for sure, even short term, because I can remember some of those chants in full. Jay: Are they long? Ravi: They're long. The one that I'm learning right now takes about 40 minutes. Jay: Wow. Allison: Four-zero, 40 minutes. Ravi: 40 minutes. Allison: That's long. And you memorized the whole thing? Ravi: You need to memorize the whole thing. It is about approximately 10,000 words. Allison: That is impressive. So what did you decide to do to tackle those concerns that you had? Even though the doctor was saying, "Oh, don't worry. It's just normal aging," you wanted to take more action. What did you do? Ravi: Yeah, I came across Baycrest, coincidentally, around the same time, not sure exactly what the circumstances were. I started reading up on brain health from WebMD and other sites like that. I had a flood of information, and ultimately, that left me even more confused, saying, "Okay, what am I supposed to be doing? Are there supplements?" And of course, there are a million companies advertising supplements and special diets and so on, all subscription services. And I wasn't very sure, so I went through some of those very in great detail to find out what exactly are they prescribing rather than just sign up for any one sense. What I found was there's lots and lots of information, there are lots of very specific things that I could do. So that's when I said, "Okay, Indian cooking has got a lot of deep-fried stuff and a lot of oil. Leave the oil out, leave the salt out, leave the deep-frying out." I started going for walks every day, and just to add a little bit of twist to that, I downloaded an app called Stellarium, which you can point at the sky, and it tells you what the sky is like, where the stars are, and stuff like that, and I would be there, I would be walking outside, watching the sky, and somebody would say, "Are you taking photographs of the sky?" And that gave me a chance to say, "No, no, no. This is what I am doing. See?" And I start talking to somebody in the middle of the road. Allison: Hopefully not in the middle of the road, but on the sidewalk. Ravi: Along the sidewalk. Allison: So you were turning the walks into social events as well? Ravi: Well, yeah, and I would talk to people walking their dogs and things like that. That got me thinking about saying maybe I should be much more strenuous with my workouts, not just taking walks and taking it easy. So yeah, I started thinking about those. Now, what I don't know is what else is there that I should be doing to keep myself on the toes. I started doing Wordle and word games on a regular basis, and I started taking my French lessons in two different places. Rather than go through the actual course that the company had prescribed, I found that it is much more comfortable if I learned it on my own. I'm finding it much easier and doing much better on that. I said, "Okay, it's not like I'm totally out of it. I'll still learn the language, but I might not be as great as I would have been when I was 15 years old." Allison: I'm impressed by that, but I'm impressed by so many of the other changes that you've made in your life, from listening to the podcast and taking action to sort of control your own aging process and not being satisfied when someone says, "Oh, it's just aging. Don't worry about it." You really strike us as someone who wants to have control and to say, "I'm going to age as well as I possibly can." Now, one thing that you did mention was you weren't really sure what to do next. We do have an expert scientist coming on after you that Jay and I will be speaking to, and if you've got any questions for her, we are happy to pass those on so she can provide some answers for you. So do you have any questions for our expert? Ravi: Yeah, I do. I've done a lot of different little things. I started learning a new language, I made conscious changes to my diet, I tried to take care of my health. I already been doing yoga on and off, but I signed up after one of the podcasts to do it on a regular basis. I would like to know what else I should be doing from those large number of things that I see affect brain health. For example, what are the other things that people should be picking on? There are some people who pick on one, and they're fantastic. The lady that I was really impressed and listened to the podcast twice about being a bodybuilder, for example. Allison: Yeah, Ernestine Shepherd. Ravi: Oh, my God. At 87, I'm not sure I'm going to be built like that, but there must be lots and lots of other smaller things that people can pick on and focus on. Allison: All right. Well, we will pass on those questions to our expert, and it has been such a pleasure chatting with you, Ravi. Thank you so much for joining us today. Jay: Yes, thank you. Ravi: Thank you very much. Allison: Ravi Venkatesh is a brain health-conscious 62-year-old IT project manager. He joined us from Mississauga, Ontario. Jay: Our next guest has been listening to Ravi. Dr. Sylvie Belleville is a psychology professor at the University of Montréal and a researcher at the Montréal Geriatric Institute. She and her team of researchers study the aging brain. They're working on ways to diagnose dementia earlier. They're also developing a way that enables people with mild cognitive impairment to train their brains to boost memory by using the brain's natural plasticity, and, relevant to what Ravi was talking about, she studies how many different lifestyle changes can lower dementia risk. Dr. Belleville, welcome to Defy Dementia. Sylvie: Pleasure to be with you. Jay: Tell me, Dr. Belleville, what struck you about Ravi? Sylvie: Well, he's a very interesting gentleman. He is clearly very active, bright, curious. He stimulates his mind, and he was worried. It's difficult to learn French. I don't find difficult, but I think it's a difficult language. And he went to see his doctor because he was worried. I think he did the right thing, and he got engaged in a lot of different things because he wants to take action. And I think that's a good idea. I think it's great. Jay: Sylvie, Ravi wants to know if there are other things he can do. Sylvie: Yeah, well, he is doing quite a lot and is cognitively very active and engaged. Maybe one thing, if you wanted to go one step further in terms of cognitive stimulation, it's like when you're doing physical activity through leisure activities, and then you want to go to the gym and take lessons. There are many people who start to be interested by things like cognitive training. So that's interesting, because these are groups where there's going to be a facilitator who will teach you strategies to better learn. So people who are already quite active and they want to go one step further could participate to these kinds of activities. For instance, you would learn strategies to better memorize a person's name. So these are mnemonics that you could learn and that will facilitate your daily life memory functions. So these are kinds of strategies that Ravi could learn perhaps. Allison: All right. Well, most people are not like Ravi, and he's already, as you've said, worked so hard to reduce dementia risks on so many different fronts. But for the rest of us who aren't as advanced, what is the message for us? Sylvie: Well, I would say first thing is to think about your motivation, so why did you get interested in that? Why are you listening to this podcast? I think that's important, because it speaks to your motivation. And then to start with yourself, where are you at risk? You now know the different risk factors. There are things that you are doing pretty well already, so put them aside. Just try to focus on the ones where you are at risk, but also things that you are ready to change. We all know it's complicated to change, and you need to think about things that interest you, things where you are ready, and also your particular context. Allison: And we've talked about a lot of different risk factors, sleep and exercise, social interaction, cognitive training, I can go on and on. Is there one in particular that is the best place to start? Sylvie: That's an interesting question. I like that question, because what science tells us is that there's actually no magic bullet, and that's a great news. Because if let's say you hate that kind of thing, well, you don't do it, or you cannot change your behavior, then you have other tools, you have other leverage on which you can work. If you look at the association between these different risk factors and dementia, they're pretty much all the same. There's not one that stands out. So it means that you can start with one of them, and you can take into account your own context. For example, if you have physical limitation that prevents you from doing lots of physical activity, then maybe you can work on your diet or on your sleep or on your stress. So there are other leverages you can have, which is encouraging, I find. Allison: So it's not one-size-fits-all. Sylvie: It's not one-size-fits-all, and it's not one single magic bullet. So it allows you all kinds of flexibility in terms of individuals. So first, what is your risk? Where can I work with them? Where do I want to start? Because the first step is really the most difficult one. It has to be simple, it has to be easy in your daily life, also. There's no gym around. Don't go to the gym, do something else. Start yoga with video, that kind of thing. If you are living on the eighth floor, take the elevator to the seventh floor and start by going one floor with the stairs, and then you do that for one week. The next week you stop on the sixth floor and then on the fifth floor, and that's motivating because you see your progression. So you have to be really nice to you and simple and adapt it to your own reality and context. Jay: That makes total sense that you have to have a place to start. But is it worth it, Sylvie, to try and take on multiple lifestyle changes if you're able to do that? Sylvie: Well, it's not bad. We know some studies have done that with older adults at risk where they were involved in one or two or three lifestyles, and it had synergic effects. So we know that if you are improving more than one lifestyle, it's not like one is replacing the other. It really has an increased effect, so that's right. But I always tell people, maybe think about what, I don't know if you'd play Scrabble. Allison: Scrabble, yes. Sylvie: Scrabble, yeah. Triple-score word, words that gives you triple score. So I tell people think of triple-score activities, like for example, going to a yoga class. It's good for your physical fitness, you're going to meet people, you're going to go out. And also we know that when you start to do physical activities, you always tend to improve your diet at the same time. Other examples are like learning, going with your son or grandson to learn cooking. So that's interesting. You're going to eat better, you're going to interact. It increases your social interaction, meaningful interaction. So there are all kinds of activities that are what I call triple-score, and that allows you to work on different dimensions. Allison: I love that triple-score analogy, and Scrabble, we think also, is probably pretty good for the brain, especially if you get all your double-letter triple-scores to get you like a thousand points or something. But in that discussion there, what you were talking about is a theme that has emerged for me and Jay over the last several episodes, which is that every time we talk about one intervention, it seems connected somehow to another. And we've sort of nicknamed this "The Mixed Bag." Then to what extent is that really true that if you're making one lifestyle change, it leads to another, and is that something that people can kind of count on to reduce their dementia risk? Sylvie: It's totally true. I really like the analogy. It's not true of all of the factors, but many of them are interrelated. Physical activity we know are related to diet, so people who improve there, who start being more active, they tend to improve their diet. We know that people who have limitations in terms of hearing, for example, will tend to isolate themselves and will be less physically active, will be less cognitively active. So if you improve your hearing, you're going to have all kinds of benefit in other dimensions. So yes, totally, many of them are interconnected. Allison: When you think about all of the different kinds of risk factors and you'd like to be doing them all together, you get the synergy and so on, what do you say to people who just can't give up certain things? They have, I think in French, what you would call a péché mignon, what we would call a guilty pleasure. So if there's something that, "Do I have to do all of these things? Do I have to eat exactly the right way and exercise exactly the right way? Or if I'm a little bit bad at one and I'm good at the other, is there some sort of a balance?" Sylvie: You don't have to be perfect. Allison: Okay, good. Good, thank you. Sylvie: Very important, you don't have to be perfect. One step at a time, a little step, and be nice to you. And also, science says that too, interestingly, and these are studies from here, a study in Quebec, where they found that people, for instance, who are physically active can allow themselves to eat a little more salty and vice versa. So yeah, you can have your little pêché mignon, that's wonderful. Happiness is important. Jay: This is all really important, great information, but I can still envision people out there saying, "Oh, listen to this. There's so much good in this, but I just don't know where to start." So Sylvie, would you have a tip or two for somebody like that who is just on the edge, the verge of being able to change one aspect of their lifestyle or another, but just can't get over that little hump. Sylvie: Simplicity. So you have to really start simple. That's extremely important, because it's not the beginning that is critical. If you're too ambitious, it seems overwhelming. So one little step at a time, it's really the key. You have to also determine yourself some objectives, of course. They have to be manageable. That's something that's important. People will determine their goals, but they have to be goals that can be reached, that are realistic. Jay: We all love good tips, Sylvie. Do you have any others? Sylvie: Well, there are many. For instance, if you want to improve your social interaction, decide that every Friday you call one of your older friend and you enter that into your habit. You could decide that you will park not right beside the entrance of the store, but a little further so that you walk more. So these are all easy things, simple things that you can integrate into your daily life to improve your lifestyle. So you see it's not complicated. It's very simple. Jay: Sylvie, one last question. All of us here, you and Allison and me and everybody working on these podcasts, have put a lot of faith in risk reduction, but there's lots of news coming out of the United States about potential new treatments. Could we get your feeling about where we stand regarding eventual dementia prevention or treatment? Sylvie: Oh, I think we are in a wonderful time, because we seem to tackle dementia through many different angles, and I think that's really the good place to be. What I tend to say is that there's two things in dementia or neurodegenerative disease. There's the positive drivers and the negative drivers. So the negative drivers are all these things that medication are trying to reduce, so you want to reduce the source of the disease. Positive drivers are what you are doing now that is let's try to improve these mechanisms of brain plasticity and reserve and compensation. We know that they work together. We know that diseases, there's really kind of a fight between those positive and negative drivers. So I think we have to tackle the disease through both sources, right, both angles. But we are in a good position. Comparing to where we were 20 years ago, we are in a wonderful position, and I'm optimistic for the future. Allison: I think we're optimistic also hearing you talk and knowing that you're on the case as a researcher, as a member of the Canadian Consortium for Neurodegeneration and Aging and doing so much work to help all of us defy dementia in the future. So thank you so much for joining us here today. Sylvie: Thank you so much for inviting me. It was a pleasure. Allison: Dr. Sylvie Belleville is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Montréal and a researcher at the Montréal Geriatric Institute. She joined us from Montréal. So Jay, a lot of really interesting discussion today. What stood out for you? Jay: Ravi is a pretty impressive guy to me, partly because he's making multiple efforts to reduce his dementia risk, and that's pretty ambitious. But I think if you were looking for the real kernel of that story, it's that it's the first step, it's him realizing that you can actually do something yourself and participate in your own dementia risk-reduction program. So I really thought that was cool. Allison: And Sylvie Belleville basically said the same sort of thing. I know people can find it really daunting in some ways that Ravi took so much control over what he was doing and was doing all these different steps to decrease his dementia risk. And as you said before, where do you start? And I think Sylvie really brought home that point very clearly, saying that you just have to start with one thing, figure out what is it that's going to work for you and start to work on that, and then other things will follow. And just getting started is the most important step. Jay: It's the most difficult step, I think, and it's very hard to look beyond that first step. But of course, everyone who takes it, or many who do, just keep going. But I think it's just we don't really like to change or introduce dislocations into our lives. Allison: And I also think that sometimes people think, "Well, I've lived my whole life like this. I'm too old to change. It's too old to make a difference," right? Jay: That's one of our kind of mottoes, isn't it? Allison: Yep. You're never too young or too old to take care of your brain. We say that, and it actually is backed up by the science. Jay: It's such an important message, and it's so hard to see exactly how to do it for an age range from say 85 to 35. You want both of them to think that they can improve their brain health. The older one might think it's too late, the younger one doesn't care. My kids are in their early 30s, and I really should be harassing them about this stuff, but I'm afraid they're just going to think, "Oh, yeah. Well, dad, dementia, he's old." So it isn't so relevant. But it actually is the key. 35-year-olds should be thinking about this a lot. The earlier you start, the better. Allison: And my kids are even younger, my kids are in their 20s, and I am harassing them to try to improve their sleep habits. Because you can imagine 20-year-old kids, they stay up all night on the weekends playing video games with their friends, they go to bed at random times, wake up at random times, and we're learning so much that consistency and regularity are really crucial for good sleep. So I think one reason I'm harassing them, and I'm not harassing them for everything, I'm just sticking with sleep, just one thing at a time, but the earlier that they can get those habits to become part of their daily lives, the more likely they are to stick with it. Jay: Wait another 10 years when they're in their mid-30s, and you'll be crumbling in the face of their opposition. It's also important to note that a lot of the tips we've mentioned on the series, which are meant to reduce your risk, are also useful to slow the progression of dementia if you've already been diagnosed with it or headed down that road. And that brings us, Allison, to another one of our key messages for Defy Dementia, and that is a dementia diagnosis does not mean imminent doom. Allison: Yeah. I think that's really a stereotype that we have to bust over and over again, the notion that if you're given a dementia diagnosis, it means your life is over. And in fact, many of the lifestyle changes that we've been talking about can actually slow the progression of dementia, and for many people, it can slow it quite a lot. Jay: Now, we're not saying a diagnosis of dementia isn't serious. It is. But it shouldn't be stigmatized. It's a phase of life that some of us are going to go through or are going through, and it's possible to live well for much of that phase. Allison: And one of my favourite examples was from that loneliness and social isolation episode when we spoke with Myrna Norman, and she was diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia. And she was told when she was diagnosed that she should start getting her affairs in order because she didn't have long to live, and that was 15 years ago, and she's living a great life right now. She has dementia, but it doesn't mean that it was the end for her. Jay: A lot of great personalities on Defy Dementia. Allison: Yeah. And looking back at it, I mentioned earlier both my grandmothers lived with dementia, and so many people in your family lived with dementia, but I have to say everything that we've learned from the show so far has made me feel much less scared about it, and I certainly don't think anymore that dementia is inevitable, because I know I'm not helpless. I know that there are things that I can do to reduce my risk. And I also know that if I develop dementia, those sorts of lifestyle changes can help me maintain my brain health and slow progression. And there's no guarantee, of course, but I think that I've certainly seen some hope of continuing to live with joy. Jay: I totally agree. And it's actually a pretty intense time for dementia writ large worldwide. Numbers are going up, research is driving along. There are treatments already here, although they're far from perfect. But let's say we have effective drugs in 10 years. What should we be doing in the meantime? Well, you might as well spend the time reducing your risk. Find out what you can do about the kinds of risks we talked about on the podcast, like sensory loss, sleep quality, start to do something about it. Allison: Absolutely. To find out more about how you can reduce the risk of dementia or slow its progression, please visit us at defydementia.org. Jay: There, you can check out other episodes of the podcast as well as our videos, infographics, and other resources. Allison: Our podcast production team is Roseanne Aleong, Monique Cheng, Sylvain Dubroqua, and our chase producer is Ben Schaub. Production is by PodText, music is by Steve Dodd, and our cover art is by Amanda Forbis and Wendy Tilby. Jay: And a great thank you to the funder of this podcast series, the Public Health Agency of Canada. Please note the views expressed here do not necessarily represent the views of the Public Health Agency of Canada. Allison: And of course, your support is greatly appreciated, too, so please hit that subscribe button for Defy Dementia on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your pods. I'm Allison Sekuler. Jay: And I'm Jay Ingram. This podcast is nothing without you. Thank you for listening to Defy Dementia. And don't ever forget you're never too young or too old to take care of your brain.